[Scoop-dev] Dev meeting log

[janra]

A summary of the items discussed in the developer's meeting of 13
February is posted at
http://scoop.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/13/174446/173

The full log of the discussion is attached.
-- 
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15:51 <@Captain_Tenille> OK, who are we missing?
15:52 <janra> rusty
15:56 -!- rusty [~rusty at ptd-24-198-180-85.maine.rr.com] has joined #scoop
15:57 <coryking> i kept telling my g/f I had a "nerd meeting" at 4 today
15:57 <@Captain_Tenille> I told my gf I had a scoop-dev meeting.
15:57 <@Captain_Tenille> She was fine with it.
15:57 <coryking> as was mine :-)
15:57 <@Captain_Tenille> She was even ok with me attending it from the bar.
15:57 <@rusty> ok, so I've got about half an hour
15:58 <hulver> You try explaining why you're staying up till midnight then.
15:58 <@rusty> everybody type fast :-)
15:58 <@Captain_Tenille> OK
15:58 <@panner> how do we start one of these things? does everyone sing their respective national anthems?
15:58 <@Captain_Tenille> Anyone have a list of what we're talking about?
15:58 <@panner> all I've got written down is "Scoop"
15:58 <coryking> i have a few ideas to talk about:
15:58 <hulver> I've got a few things, simple really.
15:58 <coryking> 1)  1.0 release requirements
15:59 <coryking> 2) docs
15:59 <coryking> 3) ??
15:59 <@Captain_Tenille> I know I wanted to talk about 1.0 release and what to do afterward
15:59 <@Captain_Tenille> 4) PROFIT!!!1
15:59 <coryking> exactly
15:59 <@Captain_Tenille> And explain the intricacies of what I have in mind
15:59 <coryking> here is my show & tell: http://coryking.dyndns.org
15:59 <coryking> login: scoop
15:59 <coryking> pass: z3pg13zd
16:00 <@Captain_Tenille> So, IMHO, all we have left for 1.0 is to get the known bugs divvied up and get them fixed.
16:00 <hulver> Is that list on scoop.k5 up to date?
16:01 <@panner> I'm not sure. I can't remember if I updated it or not
16:01 <@Captain_Tenille> It was updated a while back
16:01 <@Captain_Tenille> We need to roll hulver's recent commits back out too
16:01 <janra> there's the list in the 1.0 story on scoop.k5 plus the bugs in bugzilla
16:01 <@panner> I've still got my list of them. I'll see about adding them to bugzilla later
16:02 <@Captain_Tenille> coryking: It looks like a stock Scoop install alright
16:02 <coryking> look at the bottom three admin choices
16:02 <janra> oh, owners for the components, so new bugs are assigned properly
16:02 <coryking> "Menus" / "Plugins" & "Stylesheets"
16:02 <@panner> except it insults whoever visits it
16:02 <@Captain_Tenille> Ahhh
16:02 <coryking> I think the menus is a bit ghetto though
16:02 <coryking> oh and go into blocks
16:02 <@panner> why does there need to be a separate stylesheet editor?
16:03 <@Captain_Tenille> ok...
16:03 <@Captain_Tenille> You can delete blocks now/
16:03 <coryking> go to blocks -> that "overview" link thingy
16:03 <coryking> http://coryking.dyndns.org/admin/blocks/overview
16:03 <@Captain_Tenille> ahhh
16:04 <coryking> the stylesheets are all text files
16:04 <janra> why?
16:04 <janra> what's wrong with having them as blocks?
16:04 <@rusty> caching
16:04 <@rusty> it does make sense to have them as text files
16:04 <janra> ah
16:04 <@panner> caching on the browser side is a matter of what headers get sent. it's possible to have a css op
16:04 <@rusty> rather than have your link rel call a scoop page that just spits out one block
16:05 <@rusty> panner: i've done it, and had no luck getting the browser to cache. but there's still the scop overhead
16:05  * Captain_Tenille doesn't particularly care about the CSS stuff
16:05 <coryking> each _template page page has a box that generates the right <link blah='blah'> junk
16:05 <hulver> Although, I do have some code that allows you to turn cacheing off for a response.
16:05 <@rusty> in theory you should already have been able to. did you figure out why it doesn't seem to work?
16:06 <@rusty> but alright, wait, this isn't really general meeting stuff, is it?
16:06 <@panner> yeah, back to the impending release
16:06 <coryking> ok
16:06 <hulver> Not really.
16:06 <@rusty> Captain_Tenille's in charge of releasing 1.0, so what's the deal CT?
16:07 <@Captain_Tenille> All that's left is getting the bugs fixed
16:07 <@rusty> ok
16:07 <@Captain_Tenille> I'm trying to herd people into accepting a bug or two to fix
16:07 <@panner> and make sure the docs are all updated. might need to look over the readme and upgrade file to make they're up to date
16:07 <janra> good idea
16:07 <coryking> what *is* (was?) that formzilla stuff?
16:07 <@rusty> an alternate forum reader thingy
16:07 <@Captain_Tenille> coryking: No one's touched that in years
16:08 <@rusty> didn't really take off. we should scrap the fz stuff
16:08 <coryking> all that needs to be done is nuke the blocks?
16:08 <hulver> I'd vote to rip it out.
16:08 <coryking> or is there code too?
16:08 <@Captain_Tenille> I was thinking of taking it out in CURRENT
16:08 <@rusty> there's a module in there too, i think
16:08 <hulver> Yes, there is.
16:08 <@rusty> someone ought to take a look at the default install blocks for 1.0, too
16:08 <@panner> the forumzilla project itself has gone stale, except it looks like it just got picked up
16:08 <@rusty> clean them up, organize them
16:08 <@panner> we'll have to see what happens there, and maybe make it an optional component or something
16:09 <hulver> rusty: Which blocks? fz stuff?
16:09 <@panner> or remove it entirely, if forumzilla goes in a new direction
16:09 <@rusty> all the blocks
16:09 <janra> should fz come out for 1.0 or after?
16:09 <@Captain_Tenille> Leave it for now
16:09 <MostlyHarmless> after
16:09 <janra> ok
16:09 <@rusty> i say after. it's not hurting anything
16:09  * janra takes notes
16:09 <@Captain_Tenille> Worry about fz in current, maybe it can go in 1.1 or something
16:09 <@panner> right
16:10 <coryking> "default_uid doesn't do anything yet"?
16:10 <hulver> I'd say the first job is to get all the bugs into the bugzilla DB, and get them assigned.
16:10 <@Captain_Tenille> That's something else I want to be able to do - make more timely releases off of the STABLE branch after 1.0 comes out
16:10 <@panner> that something else we need to discuss, development practices and versioning
16:11 <@rusty> ok, so for release: make sure docs are good, clean up default install layout and blocks, and fix bugs which will soon appear in bugzilla
16:11 <@rusty> right?
16:11 <janra> so far yes
16:11 <@rusty> is that it?
16:11 <@Captain_Tenille> I think so.
16:11 <janra> "docs" including README etc files
16:11 <@Captain_Tenille> Oooh
16:11 <@Captain_Tenille> One thing we need to do:
16:11 <@Captain_Tenille> Get the SAG index.html back in
16:11 <@rusty> someone (CT) should also do a default install when we have a release candidate, and note problems
16:12  * Captain_Tenille nods
16:12 <@rusty> especially module issues
16:12 <janra> yes
16:12 <@rusty> alright
16:12 <@Captain_Tenille> Once we get hulver's commits from the past couple of days rolled back out of the main branch, I'll cut a RC
16:12 <janra> and we should probably report those issues to the maintainers of the perl modules
16:12 <@rusty> yeah
16:13 <janra> because they won't get fixed if we don't
16:13 <@rusty> so, then, versioning?
16:13 <@panner> janra: true
16:13 <@Captain_Tenille> What I would like to do with that:
16:13 <@panner> yes. how will versions go? do we want to start having dev releases and patch releases?
16:14 <@panner> like work on 1.1 as the next big version, and 1.0.1 as bug fix release? or do what we pretended to do for awhile and have 1.2 as the next big release and 1.1 be dev releases
16:14 <@Captain_Tenille> As new features get put into Scoop-CURRENT, they can get brought back into the scoop-1_0 branch
16:14 <@Captain_Tenille> and when we feel ready, we can cut scoop_1_1_RELEASE from that
16:15 <coryking> i vote for 1.0.1, less confusing then odd = unstable even = stable
16:15 <@Captain_Tenille> Then move on to scoop_1_1
16:15 <@rusty> given our release history, I think we should maybe just plan for releases to be numbered 1,2,3, and so on
16:15 <@panner> coryking: well, the 1.1/1.2 thing could still have a 1.0.1
16:15 <@rusty> in between, just use the cvs
16:15 <@panner> rusty: yeah, me too
16:15 <@rusty> cause let's all be honest, we're not going to do 1.1 releases :-)
16:15 <janra> rusty: the STABLE cvs I take it...
16:16 <coryking> what about 1.whatever CVS thinks it is?
16:16 <@rusty> so between major versions, _STABLE is the current stable source, and _DEV is the dangerous unstable dev source
16:16 <@Captain_Tenille> Yeah
16:16 <@Captain_Tenille> Eventually, CURRENT would become Scoop 2.0
16:16 <@rusty> if people have to have a tarball, they can get the last major release, but most people who are considering scoop are comfortable using cvs for it anyway
16:16 <janra> so no 1.1, 1.2 etc? Just 1.0, use cvs STABLE, then 2.0?
16:16 <@rusty> yeah
16:17 <@Captain_Tenille> I think we should have 1.1, 1.2, etc.
16:17 <@panner> so how many branches are we looking at? CURRENT, which is always absolute bleeding edge. 1.0 maintenance where bug fixes get backported in. 1.1 development which will eventually become 1.1. that it?
16:17 <hulver> I agree with Captain_Tenille, in that we should have at least 1 bug fix release.
16:17 <@Captain_Tenille> My idea was that the STABLE branch would be where the 1.x releases would come from
16:17 <@rusty> just current and stable
16:17 <@rusty> for branches, panner
16:17 <janra> then when enough changes are made in STABLE release 1.1?
16:17 <@rusty> ok, i mean, if someone wants to do point releasees, I wouldn't say you can't
16:18 <@Captain_Tenille> Because I've noticed problems upgrading too far from CVS before
16:18 <janra> just so that people who don't want to track cvs can have something recent?
16:18 <@Captain_Tenille> janra: That was my idea
16:18 <janra> that sounds like a good system to me
16:18 <@Captain_Tenille> Scoop 0.9 is pretty ancient, and removed from the current CVS
16:18 <@rusty> is there a docv on how to do all this fancy cvs stuff?
16:18 <@Captain_Tenille> rusty: I've been figuring it out lately
16:19 <@rusty> especially how to do things like backport bugfixes selectively from current
16:19 <@Captain_Tenille> If we had point releases a little more often, the most recent release version wouldn't be so woefully out of datge
16:19 <@panner> right. I'm sure we'll find bugs in 1.0, and there are plenty of people that don't want to follow CVS. I think having a point release or two to clean up 1.0 as needed would be nice, and that would require a separate branch. it'd be low activity, but there
16:19 <MostlyHarmless> rusty: http://www.cvshome.org
16:19 <@rusty> without updating everyhting that's in there
16:19 <@Captain_Tenille> panner: exactly
16:20 <coryking> i think we need point releases as well. it makes tracking what is installed easier.  from my point of view we have like 5 versions of scoop running.  all the versions are some variant of 0.9
16:20 <@panner> I think that's where 1.0.x releases should come in (low activity bug fixes). 1.x should be as we get new features together and the thing stable
16:20 <coryking> i can't really ever tell customers what the hell version they are running
16:20 <@Captain_Tenille> I'm sure we could easily carry 1.x out to 1.3 or 1.4 easily
16:20  * Captain_Tenille takes that sentence out back and shoots it
16:21 <@rusty> if there must be point releases, at least just make it 1.x
16:21 <@rusty> 1.0.x is too much
16:21 <coryking> yeah
16:21 <@rusty> if there's a major update, make it 2
16:21 <@Captain_Tenille> Unless something happens like what happened with 0.8
16:21 <janra> 2 will come from CURRENT though...
16:21 <@Captain_Tenille> Where we needed a 0.8.1, IIRC
16:21  * coryking is waiting for scoop-1.12-124-p4
16:21 <@rusty> or when 1.x has drifted sufficiently from 1.0 or, really, the next time someone feels like doing a major release
16:22 <@rusty> sometime in 2008
16:22 <janra> hehe
16:22 <coryking> thus we start Scoop 2008 XP, Scoop 2009, etc
16:23 <@rusty> so, about getting bugfixes into current?
16:23 <@rusty> i assume someone knows how to do that
16:24 <janra> hm, I'll have to start keeping two versions of the documentation, too
16:24 <MostlyHarmless> current or stable?
16:24 <@Captain_Tenille> most of what I've been doing with CURRENT has revolved around resyncing it with the main branch
16:24 <@rusty> uh stable
16:24 <hulver> I've had a bit of practice today.
16:24 <@Captain_Tenille> I've only added a few features
16:24 <MostlyHarmless> Actually, I think our CVS tree is a little backwards
16:24 <@Captain_Tenille> MostlyHarmless: It is.
16:24 <MostlyHarmless> CURRENT should be the main tree, not requiring tags to check into
16:25 <@Captain_Tenille> After 1.0, it would make a lot of sense to switch the tags
16:25 <MostlyHarmless> Captain_Tenille: by accident, or design ? :-)
16:25 <MostlyHarmless> yeah
16:25 <@Captain_Tenille> Design, for now.
16:25 <MostlyHarmless> ok
16:25 <@Captain_Tenille> I wanted to keep it seperate from the 1.0 release
16:25 <@Captain_Tenille> But have it ready for future use.
16:26 <MostlyHarmless> ok, so we want to branch out STABLE from whatever we define to be the 1.0 release then?
16:26 <@Captain_Tenille> yeah
16:27 <MostlyHarmless> ok. sorry, I'm trying to juggle debugging at work, and following IRC at the same time :-)
16:27 <@Captain_Tenille> When it's time to make a 1.0 tarball, I'll get that all sorted out and make sure the scoop 1.0 tarball has the right tag
16:27 <@Captain_Tenille> (aka not '.'0
16:28 <@Captain_Tenille> hulver and I seem to be able to do that, at least.
16:29 <panner> so we're saying 1.0 is next (obviously). 2.0 will be the next major release in keeping with our release once per decade schedule, and will come out of current. any releases in the middle will be 1.x, and will have bug fixes and some new features
16:29 <panner> if there's a major, show-stopper bug discovered in any of the 1.x releases, cut a 1.x.y to fix just that issue
16:29 <panner> is that right, or am I off?
16:29 <@rusty> yes
16:32 <@rusty> alright, so we have cvs working docs on the todo list too then
16:32 <janra> docs on working with cvs?
16:32 <@Captain_Tenille> Docs for the current branch should be easier, at least.
16:32 <@Captain_Tenille> Since hopefully the changes would be somewhat gradual, and they're starting off the same doc base
16:33 <@rusty> i mean docs on how the cvs version is set up and how to work with it
16:33 <janra> on -CURRENT?
16:33 <@Captain_Tenille> ah
16:33 <@rusty> for the whole thing
16:33 <@rusty> developer docs
16:33 <janra> ah
16:33 <@rusty> for us
16:33 <@Captain_Tenille> I have something sort of like that somewhere.
16:33 <@Captain_Tenille> I'll expand on it.
16:33 <coryking> we really need those - complete /w cut & paste examples of simple tasks like checkin to CURRENT
16:33 <janra> stuff I don't know :-)
16:34 <MostlyHarmless> in theory, after 1.0 all checkins should go into the main branch, like we're used to
16:34 <@Captain_Tenille> coryking: After 1.0, the branches are moving
16:34 <coryking> cool
16:34 <MostlyHarmless> the only people who will need advanced CVS voodoo are the suckers maintaining STABLE
16:34 <coryking> heh
16:34 <@Captain_Tenille> But the 1.0 tarball will have a different tag, so it will only update stuff found on that tag
16:35 <MostlyHarmless> how do you mean?
16:35 <janra> try doing a cvs update on 0.9
16:35 <janra> it doesn't work... because it only looks at the 0.9 stuff
16:35 <@Captain_Tenille> MostlyHarmless: Scoop 1.0 will have a different CVS tag
16:35 <@Captain_Tenille> Like scoop_1-0 or something
16:36 <@Captain_Tenille> So it will only update stuff found in that branch
16:36 <coryking> way off track:  is there a way to get MostlyHarmless's bug list to auto-mail itself to scoop-dev every friday or something?
16:36 <MostlyHarmless> janra: you have to tell CVS to add new directories explicity, for some odd reason
16:36 <@Captain_Tenille> Not stuff with tag=.
16:36 <coryking> i think by keeping the stuff in our mailboxes, we'd be more likely to pick stuff to fix, plus it would make it *the* authoritative place for bugs
16:36 <MostlyHarmless> coryking: actually, bugz has a 'whine' feature
16:36 <janra> MH: yeah, well even cvs update -d won't, because of the tag thing
16:37 <MostlyHarmless> I just haven't turned it on, it'll e-mail you once a week that you have 'NEW' bugs
16:37 <janra> for stuff assigned to you?
16:37 <MostlyHarmless> NEW bugs assigned to you
16:37 <MostlyHarmless> once you 'accept' them, it shuts up
16:37 <coryking> what about all unassigned bugs?
16:37 <janra> which leads us into the bugzilla component owners...
16:38 <MostlyHarmless> coryking: all bugs are assigned to a developer when they're first entered
16:38 <@Captain_Tenille> Bugzilla competent owners?
16:38 <@Captain_Tenille> Someone besides MostlyHarmless is gonna have to run it then
16:38 <coryking> dammit - hurstdog ain't here - we could shove the bug junk onto his sun box
16:38 <@rusty> i ahve to take off
16:38 <janra> right now only 4 components are properly assigned
16:39 <@rusty> anything else anyone needs me for?
16:39  * MostlyHarmless notes to move all unassigned bugs to Captain_Tenille 
16:39 <@Captain_Tenille> rusty: You still owe me a night of hott nature passion
16:39 <MostlyHarmless> coryking: well, bugz just got moved to a 2.2GHz P4 this afternoon
16:39 <@rusty> yeah. but we'll keep that between us
16:39 <@Captain_Tenille> shit, that was to the channel, wasn't it?
16:40 <coryking> mh: sweet
16:40 <MostlyHarmless> yeah, it's a tweak faster now :-)
16:40 <hulver> I'll take Archive, Search & Uploads. I've done a fair bit of work on all of them.
16:41 <coryking> so basically, when i enter a bug, I can just choose a victim to assign it to?
16:41 <janra> you choose a component, and bugzilla automatically assigns it to the component owner
16:41 <coryking> ah
16:42  * coryking signs up so as to stop asking stupid questions
16:42 <MostlyHarmless> :-)
16:42 <coryking> what else is there to talk about?
16:43 <janra> assigning components, development practices, and docs
16:43 <@Captain_Tenille> Someone needs to put the bugs in the bug db
16:43 <janra> at least that's what's left on my list
16:43 <hulver> Is there any documentation on how to write documentation :) Isn't the sag in tex?
16:44 <janra> the SAG is in LaTeX and how to use LaTeX is documented in a million places
16:44 <coryking> i was trying to find some kind of free, online card-sort program so we could nail down the orginization of the docs...
16:44  * coryking needs to learn latex
16:44 <@panner> hulver: in the new docs story, janra linked to a latex guide. I haven't looked at it to know if it's good for beginners like us
16:44 <@Captain_Tenille> yeah, janra is skilled in things latex
16:44 <janra> the guide I linked to says in its intro that it's an introductory guide
16:44 <MostlyHarmless> hulver: those components are now yours
16:44 <hulver> Ah, I'll have a look for that then.
16:44 <janra> the other bugzilla components?
16:44 <@Captain_Tenille> MostlyHarmless: Where's a list of components?
16:44 <janra> http://bugz.mostly-harmless.ca/describecomponents.cgi?product=scoop
16:45 <MostlyHarmless> yeah, what janra said...
16:46 <@Captain_Tenille> I'll take Sections, Stories, Topics, Users, and Utility Code
16:46 <janra> oh, and any components that were forgotten, mention them too
16:46 <MostlyHarmless> Captain_Tenille: ok
16:46 <hulver> If nobody else wants them, I'll take stories and comments as well. 
16:46 <@panner> sections can go to hillct
16:46 <@Captain_Tenille> If hillct will do anything, sure
16:46 <@panner> MostlyHarmless: where do you edit components? I was going to take a couple of them. though I guess I could just tell you :)
16:47 <MostlyHarmless> http://bugz.mostly-harmless.ca/describecomponents.cgi?product=scoop
16:47 <@Captain_Tenille> Oooh, something I had plans to do in CURRENT: finally fully deprecate MySQL 3.22 support
16:47 <@panner> I'll take cron, subscriptions, scoop.k5, and RDF
16:47 <@panner> we could give rusty payment processing, since he's really the only person who can use and test it :)
16:48 <janra> hehe
16:48 <coryking> we have like two people using that... one actually had rusty set it up
16:48 <@Captain_Tenille> I could take Users too
16:48 <janra> especially the CC processing
16:48 <@Captain_Tenille> er, I already said htat
16:48 <@Captain_Tenille> that
16:48 <janra> I got paypal payment processing working though
16:48 <MostlyHarmless> I'm glad i'm doing this on the new box... :-p I'd still be adding hulver with the old one...
16:49 <janra> hehe
16:49 <@panner> oh, I see where to change components. but I'll let MostlyHarmless do the working
16:50  * panner still has $0.19 that belong to janra from the paypal testing
16:50 <janra> oh yeah
16:50 <@Captain_Tenille> janra's also got all of panner's base
16:52 <janra> components still to be assigned: admin tools interfaces, installation, polls, post throttle
16:52 <coryking> I'll take "Post Throttle", "Admin Tools"
16:52 <@panner> I'll take admin tools
16:52 <coryking> go for it
16:52  * panner fights coryking for it
16:52 <coryking> we will need "plugins" after 1.0
16:52 <@Captain_Tenille> zuul, STEELCAGE!
16:52 <coryking> which i will take
16:52  * zuul cracks his knuckles and gets his chain ready.
16:53 <@Captain_Tenille> ooh, and Compat
16:53 <@Captain_Tenille> Which I guess I'll take
16:53 <coryking> what about CVS bugs?
16:53 <@panner> polls is still left, right? I'll take that. and install, I guess
16:53  * panner still isn't sure what compat does
16:54 <@panner> is it for any methods that get changed and need wrappers so old boxes work with them?
16:54 <@Captain_Tenille> Yeah, basically
16:54 <@panner> okay
16:54 <MostlyHarmless> oh, a word of warning. If you're using SPEWS, you may not get Bugz e-mail...
16:54 <@Captain_Tenille> So hopefully big changes won't shatter old code beyond all usabality
16:55 <coryking> got it
16:55 <@Captain_Tenille> I shouldn't be IRCing sick
16:56 <coryking> ct: you should take a "CVS" one though
16:56  * panner hopes Captain_Tenille doesn't get the rest of us sick
16:56 <@Captain_Tenille> OK, I'll take a CVS component
16:56  * coryking coughs in panners direction
16:56 <@Captain_Tenille> Does rusty have *any* of these?
16:56 <MostlyHarmless> what's the CVS component for?
16:56  * panner waits for the log to see what he missed during his outage
16:56 <@Captain_Tenille> Presumably CVS issues
16:56 <coryking> like "the CVS tree is busted"
16:56 <MostlyHarmless> Captain_Tenille: payment processing
16:56 <@Captain_Tenille> ah, good
16:57 <MostlyHarmless> that's a version, not a component
16:57 <@Captain_Tenille> coryking: I should be in Seattle tomorrow. I'll gladly find you and cough on you
16:57 <@panner> the only things I could see going into CVS would be "we need to branch for this" or "this tag is needed"
16:57 <coryking> hmm
16:58  * coryking is just brainstorming
16:58 <@Captain_Tenille> You won't be brainstorming when you get the SUPARFLU
16:58 <MostlyHarmless> who wants Polls?
16:58 <janra> panner took them
16:58 <@panner> hurst
16:58 <@panner> or me in that case
16:58 <janra> you said you take them, anyhow :-)
16:59  * Captain_Tenille doesn't think hurst does much scoop stuff these days
16:59 <MostlyHarmless> and Comments? rusty? :-)
16:59 <hulver> I'll take comments.
16:59 <janra> heh
16:59 <coryking> what about a "blocks" component for stuff like busted HTML
16:59 <@Captain_Tenille> hulver: You are a brave man.
16:59  * MostlyHarmless salutes Hulver
16:59 <janra> or "HTML output"
16:59 <coryking> yeah
17:00 <janra> then stuff like broken HTML in the code can be tagged in there too
17:00 <@panner> well, just remember. if you're in charge of a component, you can still assign the bugs to other people :)
17:00 <janra> I could take HTML output
17:00 <coryking> i'd buy that
17:01 <janra> I've been meaning to clean it up anyway
17:01 <janra> and all the HTML I've found in the code while documenting has been driving me nuts
17:01 <MostlyHarmless> what about bugs in boxes?
17:01 <coryking> those should be owned by whoever wrote the box i'd say
17:01  * panner buys 19000 more ads from janra 
17:01 <MostlyHarmless> yeah, but i'm not creating a new component for every box :-)
17:02 <janra> or filed under the feature they're related to
17:02 <janra> plus a component for sidebar boxes?
17:02 <@panner> yeah, like janra said about feature they're related to
17:02 <coryking> all the dude who was assigned that stuff would do is forward them off to the box owner...
17:02 <@panner> janra: what boxes are there that won't fit under another component?
17:02 <janra> uh... good point
17:02 <janra> main menu?
17:03 <MostlyHarmless> what about custom boxes from the SBE?
17:03 <coryking> you know what, i bet whoever finds those would email whoever put their email address on the source code
17:03 <coryking> i woudln't worry about the boxes
17:03 <@panner> janra: hmm, html output? :)
17:03 <janra> panner: ? what about it?
17:03 <@panner> janra: where to file main_menu bugs
17:03 <janra> ah
17:04 <janra> well, if it's a bug in the HTML it produces, sure :-)
17:04 <@panner> well, that's all it really does isn't it? produces HTML? so if it's not working, it's goofing the HTML up some how or another
17:04 <MostlyHarmless> bugs about HTML could be handled with an HTML keyworkd
17:05 <MostlyHarmless> err, keyword
17:05 <janra> ok, box bugs get filed with whatever feature they're related to
17:05 <@panner> right. and bugs related to main_menu get shuffled around by component owners who don't want them
17:05 <janra> hehe
17:05 <hulver> What else have we got to discuss, because I'm going to bed soon.
17:05 <janra> MH: then HTML bugs will be all over the place
17:05 <janra> um, docs and development practices are still on my list
17:06 <@panner> okay, what about docs?
17:06 <@Captain_Tenille> That seems appropriate for janra
17:06 <coryking> hulver: is your ((file)) stuff checked in?
17:06 <janra> still needs developer section stuff, and an index
17:06 <@panner> ah
17:06 <hulver> coryking, It is, but get it while it's there, because It's being reveresed out soon.
17:06 <janra> other than that, feedback from users
17:07 <janra> because it's hard to get somebody to read a 100-page document...
17:07 <coryking> hulver: sweet.... somebody is intersted in it, didn't know what to tell them
17:07 <@panner> hulver: well, it'll remain in current
17:07 <janra> anybody else have something to say for docs?
17:07 <coryking> it's too bad i couldn't find a free card-sort util for the docs... 
17:08 <coryking> we could have all nailed that down tonight
17:08 <janra> oh coryking did you see the navigation I added
17:08 <coryking> you basically write down all the headings on index cards
17:08 <hulver> While I remember. In that bunch of stuff I checked in was a fix for a bug listed in the release bug list. The sections_excluded_from_all bug.
17:08 <coryking> and then sort them
17:09 <hulver> coryking: The file macro on my site relies on some boxes as well, so if you want that email me, and I'll send you details on how to set it up.
17:09 <coryking> hulver: i still owe you that plugin crap so you can start porting ads, et al over
17:09 <janra> anybody else have something to say for docs?
17:09 <coryking> i haven't seen the nav stuff yet - is it
17:09 <coryking> on the scoop.k5 story?
17:09 <janra> no
17:09 <janra> I just did it yesterday
17:10 <@panner> hulver: okay, I'll take it off my list
17:11 <coryking> cool - just so it'd noted, i hope i didn't come off too harshly, we are learning about orgainizing documents right when that thread happened :-)
17:11 <janra> and after docs the last item is development practices... not sure what was meant by that, but it's on the list
17:11 <janra> coryking: I figured as much
17:11 <coryking> heh
17:12 <@panner> I guess development practices relates to where stuff gets checked in
17:12 <@panner> and the send a patch to someone else before putting big features in
17:12 <janra> I'd imagine also the policy of never checking your own patches into -STABLE
17:13 <@panner> right, the patch stuff
17:13 <janra> just so you're sure at least one other person got it to work
17:13 <hulver> janra: That's a good idea.
17:13 <coryking> what is the magic incantations to generate patch files
17:13 <hulver> cvs diff -c > my.patch
17:13 <coryking> cool
17:13 <coryking> then you get a handfull of .diffs?
17:13 <hulver> One.
17:13 <coryking> and the database stuff?
17:14 <janra> right, "how to make a db patch"
17:14 <hulver> Write a script :)
17:14 <janra> more docs
17:14 <janra> MH was asking for that not long ago :-)
17:14 <coryking> how could we script that?
17:14 <hulver> That should go in the "Hacking scoop" section.
17:14 <janra> yes, it will
17:14 <janra> I've written it down, I'll put it in
17:14 <@panner> I intend to re-do the db patch stuff with the db abstraction
17:15 <@panner> for what it's owrth
17:15 <MostlyHarmless> I don't really need a script for DB patches, just instructions on how to make them :-)
17:15 <@panner> coryking: what's there to script in that?
17:15 <coryking> i dunno
17:15 <janra> panner: ok, but for 1.0 I still should document the pre-db-abstraction stuff for db patches 
17:15 <hulver> MostlyHarmless: It depends if you're doing something to a box or block that could have been modified.
17:15 <coryking> all i know is it's really easy to forget what you changed in the database...
17:15 <coryking> but i dont know how one could script that... besides on paper :-)
17:15 <janra> it is
17:16 <janra> heh, I make a note in an open file as I go
17:16 <hulver> And you need to update scoop.sql as well.
17:16 <coryking> yup
17:16 <MostlyHarmless> hulver: yeah, but even a simple "HOWTO patch the db" would be handy
17:16 <hulver> I do a mysqldump, and then diff it against the original to get a note of what's changed.
17:17 <coryking> hulver: that is a good idea
17:17 <coryking> compare the mysqldump before & after
17:17 <coryking> somehow tease out a patch + .sql file
17:17 <hulver> Yes, it's a fairly tedious process. Especially to do a complicated one.
17:18 <coryking> that would be a really, really useful utility. it would really eliminate tons of mistakes. saldy, I'm not a perl-god.
17:18 <@panner> coryking: well, what I do is if I'm making db changes, I start my db patch (the SQL one) and type out my commands in it, then copy them to the mysql prompt
17:18 <@panner> if they work, I leave them in there, as they're tested
17:18 <coryking> panner: thats what I do too
17:18 <@panner> if I need to make a db patch, I write down in a file what needs to be changed
17:19 <@panner> if you were coding on a fresh db, you could technically just mysqldump your db afterwards. but I doubt you ever code on a fresh db (you wouldn't have users or anything to test with), so that doesn't work
17:19 <@panner> you don't need to manually update scoop.sql. in fact, it's better not to because you're less likely to break stuff
17:20 <@panner> when you've got your db patches done, just make a new database, load scoop.sql into it, apply your db patch to it, then myslqdump it back out to scoop.sql
17:20 <coryking> so what you are saying is only create patch files, dont touch scoop.sql?
17:20 <@panner> right
17:20 <MostlyHarmless> OK, the 'report bugs' link on scoop.k5 now points to bugz, rather than sourceforge
17:20 <janra> so who updates scoop.sql?
17:21 <@panner> janra: whoever checks in does. unless you're rusty, then you make someone else do it ;)
17:21 <janra> heh
17:21 <janra> ok
17:21 <coryking> what about naming conventions on the SQL patch files?
17:22 <coryking> do we just name them right before we check them in? or let somebody else name & number them
17:22 <janra> when committed, they're renamed to be the right number
17:22 <janra> until then, just use something descriptive
17:22 <coryking> ok, basically "somebody else" handles that ;-)
17:22 <@panner> coryking: when I create it I make the file with the next number. just before I checkin, I cvs update -P -d one more time (always wise, to catch those last minute changes)
17:22 <@panner> then if I need to, rename it, add something to the README in that dir
17:23 <@panner> I should really write this down and send it to janra, shouldn't I?
17:23 <janra> I'm taking notes
17:23 <@panner> no, the patches aren't automiatcally re-numbered. I mean, if someone messes up someone else will fix it, but I always number them myself
17:23 <coryking> cool cool...  does the numbering actually mean something?
17:23 <coryking> do we even need to number the patches?
17:24 <janra> yeah, the order they have to be applied in
17:24 <coryking> duh
17:24 <coryking> ok
17:24 <@panner> yeah, since sometimes later ones depend on earlier ones
17:24 <@panner> I could I should write down and go through my checkin procedure
17:24 <coryking> make it a checklist
17:24 <coryking> "did you rename file xxx?'
17:24 <coryking> "did you remember to update readme?"
17:25 <@panner> yeah
17:26 <coryking> should we set a date to aim for?
17:26 <coryking> like - march 1?
17:27 <janra> for an RC or a release?
17:27 <coryking> scoop-1.0
17:27 <coryking> so we can start doing the fun stuff :-)
17:27 <@panner> let's make march 1 as our hopeful date for a final RC
17:27 <@panner> and if that's okay, then we can hope to release by march 5
17:28 <coryking> there ain't much is there?  a few bugs, docs, um...
17:28 <janra> docs isn't much, no... 
17:28 <janra> :-p
17:28 <@panner> coryking: right. and hopefully the RC we'll aim to release on March 1 will be the final one, because everything will be ready
17:29 <coryking> should we make a "todo list" that we can publish on scoop.k5
17:29 <@panner> basically, let's aim for a March 1 release, but actually release 1.0 shortly after that
17:29 <@Captain_Tenille> So has anyone figured out how to rollback yet?
17:29 <@Captain_Tenille> So we can cut RC1/
17:29 <@Captain_Tenille> ?
17:29 <@panner> I haven't looked
17:30 <MostlyHarmless> well, the hard-way is to check out the tip, then check out the previous version of all the files hulver just checked in
17:30 <coryking> groups.google.com is flooded with "CVS Rollback"
17:30 <coryking> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cvs+rollback&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=fa.iqdi3uv.1c3uqiv%40ifi.uio.no&rnum=3
17:30 <@Captain_Tenille> Somewhere I have a pdf copy of a cvs book that's pretty good and linked from scoop.k5
17:31  * coryking uses the pocket guide to cvs
17:31  * coryking still sucks at cvs
17:31 <@panner> the think coryking just linked to looks like it'll work, since no otehr changes have been made
17:32 <@panner> are you going to do it Captain_Tenille, or do you want me to?
17:32 <MostlyHarmless> I've got copies of Cederqvist and "Open Source Development with CVS" in a binder next to me
17:32 <janra> don't forget the bugfix hulver checked in that we *do* want in there...
17:32 <@Captain_Tenille> panner: If you feel like doing it right now, go ahead.
17:32 <@Captain_Tenille> Otherwise, I'll do it later.
17:32 <coryking> mh: i looked at the OPen source one.. any good?
17:33 <MostlyHarmless> coryking: haven't had much of a chance to read it. I tend to refer to cederqvist
17:34 <@panner> janra: it might be hard to separate macros from that fix. if so, we'll just leave the bug fix out, it's not that important
17:34 <coryking> metamoderation, when should we add it.
17:34 <coryking> slashdot has it
17:34 <coryking> why dont we?
17:34 <janra> er
17:34 <janra> no comment
17:34  * janra goes to post the notes
17:34 <coryking> heh
17:36 <@panner> coryking: in response to your scoop.k5 docs comment: if you have an idea for a docs layout and you want to try using dreamweaver, go for it. if you can then split the layout stuff back out from the content, we (as in janra ;) can try and integrate it with latex2html
17:36 <coryking> cool
17:36 <coryking> that was my plan
17:36 <coryking> dunno if that will make 1.0 though
17:37 <@panner> it doesn't need to. better to fix bugs for 1.0 :)
17:37 <coryking> indeed